I’ve been wanting to write this post for some time now, and am finally just going to do it. As you can tell from the title of this blog post, I want to clear a few things up. The Genesis theme framework is not Thesis, and Thesis is not the Genesis theme framework. There I said it.
Going into more detail, what I really want to do is clear up some misconceptions about Genesis and Thesis being similar, and that we launched Genesis trying to compete with Chris and Brian. That can’t be further from the truth.
Why We Developed the Genesis Theme Framework
The answer to this is simple – we developed the Genesis theme framework for our users. Yes, for our users. Most of the current StudioPress themes have similar code, and it made total sense for us to take a step back, and provide a solution that would be ideal for them. What better way to do that than to build a framework that is built on one set of core files, and can easily be extended by way of a child theme.
Another major reason we developed the Genesis theme framework was to provide a much simpler way of updating as new theme releases took place. While I take full credit for the lack of ease on the current StudioPress themes, I knew that in order to stay atop the market, we needed to come up with a solution that was solid. One that would allow users to update their themes, without the need for re-doing theme customizations. The obvious choice in that process was to build a framework.
Why There’s No (Logical) Comparison Between Genesis and Thesis
This headline might be a bit misleading – I’m not saying that Genesis is better than Thesis – nor am I saying that Thesis is better than Genesis. Here’s the best way for me to explain what I mean by “there’s no comparison”.
Think of a Honda Odyssey. Now think of a Ford Mustang. Both are vehicles, and that’s just about the extent of their similarities. Yes, they both have 4 wheels, a steering wheel and a few doors, but other than that they serve two very different purposes – and therefore cannot be compared to one another. One was designed to accommodate a family, take them to and from McDonald’s for nightly Happy Meal runs and also has a DVD player in it to keep parents sane. The other was designed for high speeds, for guys who are experiencing mid-life crisis and also for them to woo the ladies. See where I’m going here?
What are the Differences Then Between Genesis and Thesis?
Let’s start with the obvious – Genesis style can be customized by the use of a stylesheet, while Thesis’ primary means of customization is a design options page. In my opinion, Chris wants to keep people in the dashboard – which is a very intelligent way of doing things. (I will point out that Thesis, too, can also be customized by using a custom.css file.)
In my opinion, Chris developed Thesis to serve as a blank slate, so to speak – to give bloggers and developers a solid engine to start with, and to give them the ability to style as they please. With the Genesis theme framework, we’ve focused more on the design element – while also ensuring that we still built a very solid core set of files. (Thus the hiring of Mark Jaquith to ensure the very best of security.)
I’d be willing to bet that if you took a look under the hood of Genesis and Thesis, you’d see two very different things. While both are engines, they are both built differently. (Going back to the van vs. car thing.) True, they both may have hooks in various locations, and some custom functions, that’s pretty much the extent of the similarities. Styling is handled differently, general code customization is handled differently and the list goes on.
So… Genesis is Not Thesis, and Thesis is Not Genesis
I’ll say it again. And again. Genesis was developed as a solution to a fundamental problem we had at StudioPress – well maybe not a problem, just a better solution. We did not develop it – nor do we market it as – a “Thesis competitor/replacement.” We respect Chris and what he built. We respect the community he’s formed, and have seen plenty of “killer” Thesis sites.
So if any of you feel the need to compare the Genesis theme framework and the Thesis theme for WordPress, feel free. I’m sure there are some users who will claim one is better than the other – and that may be the case. A real estate agent might like Genesis better, and a blogger might like Thesis better. (Or vice versa.) The bottom line is that it’s pretty much different strokes for different folks. Some people drive mini-vans, some people drive cars. Both have their place in the world, and both can survive in the same market.
Amen.
I’d like to add that at no point in the Genesis development process did the word “Thesis” ever get brought up. Our eyes are on something completely different, though the two themes may seem similar at the moment.
And to address the similarities, it should be noted that doing things the right way hasn’t been patented. Do Genesis and Thesis do similar things? Yes. But I’d like to believe that where the two themes share similarities, they are similarly done correctly.
There are a LOT of themes that are doing individual things correctly. And in that regard, I want Genesis to be similar to those themes as well.
I’d like to think we’re pioneering new ways of doing things right as well. There’s no such thing as a perfect theme or business model, so where we see weaknesses in the current theme selection or market, we want to fill the gaps.
For instance:
We were the first (that I know of) to offer universal AND in-post layout options.
We were the first (that I know of) to use the body class as the primary means of changing layouts, leaving your markup almost completely unchanged.
We were the first to fully embrace the WordPress 2.9 image functions, ditch TimThumb, and use WP thumbnails exclusively.
We were the first (major) commercial theme developer to embrace the parent/child theme concept
We were the first to offer child themes for preview/purchase within the dashboard
And we’ve got a whole list of ideas that we hope we’re the first to deliver.
On top of that, we feel like we’ve taken a lot of good ideas that already existed, and solidly executed them in the Genesis Framework.
The point being, our goal is to make a great product. In order to make a great product, you have to do some things the same, some things differently, but everything well. Keep that in mind.
Well put Brian. I have a license for both frameworks. Thesis is great for the majority of bloggers who can’t or don’t want to fuss with CSS, yet want to monkey with things like fonts and text sizes. Chris writes nice code too. But I found Thesis rather prohibitive with respect to the needs of designers and developers.
Genesis, on the other hand, gives you the awesome code under the hood, but stays out of the way where the design is concerned. I have to say the base style really deserves to be noted, and it doesn’t hijack you in any way. It gives general users a great base, but leaves the door wide open for designers. Truly a great accomplishment so kudos.
I whole-heartedly agree, you cannot compare these frameworks as apples to apples. They appeal to different audiences who have different needs. You guys have done a great job writing a powerful, yet design-flexible framework, and I think your child theme store is going to do very well as a result.
Keep up the great work!
Thanks Suzanne, and well put yourself. Funny you mention the apples to apples comparison, because that was the other analogy I was going to use if the automotive one didn’t come out right. I think it’s easy for people to sling mud, and make uninformed comments and tweets about things like Genesis vs. Thesis – but the bottom line, and I can probably say safely that Chris himself would agree, is that Genesis and Thesis are different.
If anyone listens to the way Mr. Pearson and yourself describe your respective frameworks they would understand the differences in philosophy and uses for your frameworks.
In any case, I hope people will do enough reading and research to find out which product works best for them and not look for quick “comparisons” on products that are not built to do the same thing.
Thanks for your comment Joseph – you seem to get it as well, and glad to hear that some folks can reasonably see the Genesis/Thesis thing for what it is. Or isn’t.
Brian,
I think this spells out the differences clearly enough. I do agree they are both very different themes, each with their pros and cons.
Having played with Thesis briefly in the past, I found it quite confusing, and it definitely is designed for a technically minded person. On the other hand, I haven’t played with Genesis, but from what I have read, it definitely is more of a theme framework than Thesis is.
Hey Andrew – thanks for stopping by. It’s really 6 to one, 1/2 dozen to another. Some people say they “get” Thesis, and not Genesis – while others say they “get” Genesis and not Thesis. Obviously my post isn’t about which one is better, rather spelling out that they are different. Both are frameworks, but they ultimately handle things in a different way.
Well put Brian. I’d say that Thesis is like the Empire State Building whereas Genesis is like the Sears Tower. Here’s the rub; with Thesis you too can build an Empire State Building whereas with Genesis you can build the rest of the New York and Chicago skylines.
Thesis is a great scaffold for building a particular kind of site very well and easily. Genesis is a set of architectural blueprints for building variety.
I own both. I appreciate them equally. They serve different purposes.
No matter how well one writes copy, variety is the spice of life.
That said, I think the key differentiator 6 months out will be the child theme market place.
Brian,
I have to say first it is funny that a post of this nature had to be made. Genesis is at it’s core different in almost all aspects to Thesis. I also own developers licenses of each and everyday have clients that are using Studiopress and Thesis and we move them back and forth based on their needs. I love the work that Chris has done, and is doing. I am really giddy (yes I said that) from some of the new features there. I am just has excited about the genesis framework and the awesome child themes being built on it.
If someone was to compare Genesis to anything, I would think that Justin and Ian with Hybrid and Thematic would get tossed in the mix way before Thesis. These two are pure frameworks, that utilize the same child ideas. I had been using Hybrid for some time now before Genesis came around. Justin and Ian really push the envelope I think with the parent/child relationship and it is awesome to see Genesis in the mix with them.
I am glad that you spelled out that Genesis is meant to fill a coding gap in the Studiopress and Agentpress lines. I use the Executive child on my blog, and outside of some basic css mods it has been rock solid as is. This is really what a parent/child is suppose to be. I went live with my site on the earliest possible genesis betas, and outside of one small hiccup that took me 30 seconds to fix every update to the Genesis framework has been clean and simple with no changes or disruptions to my child theme. This is the way that I see wordpress designs moving. A strong backend that is driving the hardcore functions and then a elegant frontend handling the paint job. Heck, is that not what HTML and CSS are suppose to do. HTML handles the structure and CSS handles the paint job. Parent and Child themes are the natural evolution of theme design and so it is natural that Studiopress would be there along side the other premium theme designers iThemes (builder), Woothemes (wooframe) and others all moving to a Parent or core and then a child skin.
So keep up the core (looks over to Nathan) and the children coming. I will be happy to use them with my clients. I will also be happy to utilize Thesis for the clients that it fits there needs. Both systems rock, but yes they are very very different.
Yeh, I was coming to say the same thing (re: Hybrid/Thematic). I am curious if you (Brian/StudioPress) considered partnering with Ian or Justin? And if yes, why didn’t you? And if no, why not?
Both of those guys were way ahead of the curb (and probably you could say that the Sandbox/PlainTxt guy (can’t remember his name) was even further ahead).
I’m curious as to why you decided to call it a framework. Ain’t Genesis basically just a theme that is made to be skinned and somewhat extended by child themes? Perhaps the confusion lies in that this is not that obvious to most people?
It’s a framework because there are hooks involved as well has a library of custom functions and widgets. I never said it shouldn’t be considered a framework, rather that it is a different type of framework than Thesis is.
I’m glad you wrote this post. I’ve actually been working on putting together some really deep level reviews of the various Frameworks (I think I own a developer licenses fro every one of them) that address things like code efficiency/speed, differences in CSS frameworks, etc.
Having spent that time, I can say to anyone reading this that Brian’s done a great job with Genesis. Especially considering it’s in its very first release. Thesis is still the king in terms of out of the box speed, but Genesis tested very close, and actually smoked many of the frameworks that have been around quite awhile. I think he’s also been very smart with not overloading it with every idea I know he and his team has thought of in the first release. Quality code is of the utmost importance, especially in the beginning.
Moving forward, it’s important for users to understand that each framework has it strong points for specific types of work. If you are primarily doing smaller blog style one-off site development that you are turning over to a client, a single site framework like Thesis is a great choice. It’s super fast, has great typography and the client can upgrade without screwing up your work.
On the other hand, if you are doing any kind of work that involves building and managing multiple sites for clients, then IMO you really need to be using a framework (like Genesis) that is MU friendly and does a better job of adhering to the built-in structure of WordPress. (child themes, template hierarchy, image handling, etc).
And when you consider that MU is getting merged into the core, I think the timing of Genesis’ release couldn’t be better. A year from now, a huge chunk of the WP community will be venturing down the road of multi-site/single-install for the very first time so the more options we have that work well in that type of application of WordPress, the better.
And finally, the last comment I’ll leave you with has to do with adding future features. I truly hope that all developers figure out that being a true framework means being truly customizable. And that means not force feeding all new features on users. Features that are truly great have some type of on/off switch.
Greg – thanks so much for taking the time to comment. Coming from you, this all means quite a bit – as I know that you have extensive knowledge in the field. We’re doing our best to improve things like load times, efficiency, and the likes, so if you have some time to spare – would love to catch up on things and get more insight from you.
I drive a Nissan Altima, so I guess that puts me in the middle
Without getting into too many details, I think Genesis is a fundamental extension of the StudioPress core – it was the next step in theme flexibility, optimization and customization. As a WordPress designer and as someone who uses StudioPress themes almost exclusively, Brian and Nathan created something that met the needs of a thriving community, and met those needs beautifully.
Thesis is a great theme. Genesis is a great theme framework. Even better is that fact that we have that choice, and with amazing WordPress architects like these guys killing it over and over again just makes it that much more fun.
I also own a license for both Thesis and Genesis and I can say the two are as different as night and day.
I’m often torn between the two now because of those differences. two things that made my buy Genesis: the GPL and post thumbnails.
Carlos, that sounds like the story of a lot developers these days – most of which own all of our “theme packs” and use whichever one fits their client needs. And I’m all for that.
Good to explain the differences, but I’m not sure why you need defend yourself re: competing with Thesis.
Like Carlos, I like your respect for GPL and the community feel.
I’d be interested in looking at Thesis to see what all the fuss is about, if I could use it as I wished on purchase.